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Post by legrand on Oct 9, 2007 8:50:51 GMT -5
Nao What was your intellectual methodology in creating this anagram....what were you thinking....what had you read that would have caused you to see this anagram? It's rather brilliant. Not to mention the creators brilliance in the first place. I hope you're not thinking that what you presented here is moot. It's not. Fife capitalized can make reference to Scotland as you probably already know. Although "play" is important, "Scotland" is too important as the mansion of my research is a perfect model of Georgian Symmetry built by the Scottish sea captain John MacPherson in 1761 (Fairmount Park, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania). As you probably already know, The Gold Bug holds a crypt of information hidden as a missive in the plaintext of the story [read "Leaves of Lavendered Lily" www.rosedogbookstore.com/leoflali.html]. As you probably already know, there is a "bridge" between the Beale Papers and the missive in The Gold Bug via the Red Knee. I'm sure you've seen my work at: www.angelfire.com/pro/bealeciphers/Page26.htmPoe hid things in this Beale mystery. The Masons have legitimate findings; however, the entirety of their findings do not equate to the location of a possible treasure....at least not that they've said so far. Their work is important though, as yours now is. Read my book when it is available. I'm not going to go into deep discussion on this thread when all is available in print. What you've found is brilliant.....even though it may have been by accident or in sarcastic utterance. This discovery of suspected treasure location needs a team of all camps to include you the skeptic. Together we will solve the enigma. Poe would have wanted this, I think. Legrand
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Post by charlie mason on Oct 9, 2007 13:05:01 GMT -5
NAO,
I was ready to debate you on this topic,but as I have never published anywhere at any time my total comprehension of what I know about the Beale Cipher Codes or how to achieve their solution,nor have I ever proclaimed the solution to them publicly, it would be ludicrous on my part to assume an amatuer cryptography layman as yourself can comprehend the suttle nuances used in these ciphers.
The creator or creators of this puzzle worked a long while to achieve what they did with puzzle.
You are absolutely correct in your statement about Mary Queen of Scots,but I was not trying to say The Beale Codes follow her pattern but was trying to emphasize that letters can be embedded in a letter that the average reader would not see.But apparently you didn't understand what I was implying. (such A shame ,I had given you more intellectual ability than what you have demonstrated in writing comments as you have on some of these forums. ) Since you have taken it upon yourself to be God's own critic regarding who is the right cryptic Mogul to answer all the lamented misdirections people have been led down over the years, I stand corrected.
AS you have not read the entirety of things published by my brother and myself you have been very unimaginative in your comments .I will leave you to chase what dingo trails you wish, knowing what I do will continue to pursue my own errors if that is what they be and will not need your assistance in these endeavors.
So I will now say G'day bt clodhopper
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David
Senior Member
Moving on to new horizons
Posts: 134
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Post by David on Oct 9, 2007 13:41:48 GMT -5
NOA
My Brother Charles got in ahead of me and is rather long in the tooth......
I withdraw the comment about a discussion across the table with a case. I am afraid your thoughts are just too prosaic to be of any value now or in the future. Instead of amateur, mediocre would best describe your abilities in understanding cryptology. A Prosaic Mind should have a hobby like checkers strategy for the novice. Further commentary with you would be like pissing into the wind
G'by Mate David
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Post by Not An Option on Oct 9, 2007 22:31:44 GMT -5
NAO, I was ready to debate you on this topic,but as I have never published anywhere at any time my total comprehension of what I know about the Beale Cipher Codes or how to achieve their solution,nor have I ever proclaimed the solution to them publicly, it would be ludicrous on my part to assume an amatuer cryptography layman as yourself can comprehend the suttle nuances used in these ciphers. My mistake at the beginning was using the humble but technically correct "amateur cryptographer" description for myself, because you certain do enjoy bringing it up every chance you get as in "NAO is such a amateur at-". The fact of the matter is, I know more about cryptography than you do [as evidenced by your confused approach to the subject and incorrect statements such as Mary Queen of Scots, discussed below] and if you're going to insist upon calling me an amateur cryptographer to imply a lack of knowledge, then you are by comparison no cryptographer at all. I don't particularly care what you call yourself, but I take umbrage that someone as incoherent as yourself would presume a natural advantage at cryptography over myself. Is that 'suttle' enough for you? NO. DAMN IT, NO. HER CIPHER WAS COMPRISED OF NON-ENGLISH SYMBOLS. ALSO, IT WASN'T EMBEDDED IN PLAINTEXT: THE MESSAGES WERE SMUGGLED IN HOLLOWED OUT CORKS FROM KEGS. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS WHATSOEVER. Because I'm a gentleman, I *will* use my knowledge to provide you with an example of what you are attempting to talk about: a concealment cipher was used to help Sir John Trevanion escape captivity and certain death. If you're in the mood to learn some actual facts about crypto, I urge you to google it up. You clearly weren't paying attention when I said people who know what they're talking about don't need to 'drop hints' and 'imply', they discuss their ideas openly, freely and most important of all, clearly. I understand why you like to hide your ideas away - they're fragile like a house of cards and certainly not intended to bear scrutiny, but stop pretending you're being obtuse because the rest of us are slow. Anyone can talk clearly if they want to. No one would have the time to read the entirety of you and your brother's theories, which I understand, are still being developed even as we speak. When you finally finish them and get something coherent down on paper, I'd be happy to have a look at it, if that's what you want. If however it turns out to be more PRICE: FIFTY CENTS stuff as dissected above, well, I think we both know the diagnosis..
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Post by Not An Option on Oct 9, 2007 22:38:14 GMT -5
I withdraw the comment about a discussion across the table with a case. It's OK, I was just being polite when I accepted. In case it wasn't obvious, I think your approach to the Beale cipher is insane and entirely without merit. I thought I had said enough about meaningless connections and pointless searching for patterns/anagrams in previous posts for you to get the message, but obviously not. I'm glad my 'price: fifty cents' comment finally hit the mark, however, which is presumably what prompted this sudden candour. I wish you and your brother luck with your future endeavours, you may very well need it. NAO
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Post by legrand on Oct 9, 2007 23:39:20 GMT -5
Whew! Is the fire out yet?
David and Charlie....your work is valid. You're finding Poe's signature. His "X". Don't be dissuaded from what appears to be a sinister agenda on NAO's part.
NAO....what you did was brilliantly helpful....to me. You're of a rather vile nature in your refutation, however.
I wonder....is there any other anagram for "price fifty cents". Is there any other phrase that can be made with one (s,n,p,r,y) and two (f,e,c,i,t)? We have two, are there any others? I happen to think that the intended one is "insect crypt Fife". I have explained briefly why. To expound, we can see the certainty of a Poe connection in the Beale Papers with the anagrams located by the Masons. Poe likely hoped that being aware of his hand in the mystery that one would be lead to The Gold Bug missive by 1) the cryptogram B1 plaintext of "ERE FEN DUE RED KNEE" or by 2) the anagram of "Price Fifty Cents" reading.....(The Gold Bug)(a chamber wholly or partly underground) [of] (Scotland). The missive in The Gold Bug plaintext hints at a structure that hides something. That of great value will "pay forth from". The Mount Pleasant mansion has eight quoins; how many legs does a spider have? Do you see it? Poe knew of the treasure, but could not access it....so he wrote about it.....cryptically. There's reason for this too. It's in "National (Beale) Treasure....At Red Knee".
Lighten up NAO.
Legrand
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David
Senior Member
Moving on to new horizons
Posts: 134
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Post by David on Oct 10, 2007 10:17:25 GMT -5
Legrand..
There is an anomaly or curiousity attached to the pamphlet price 50 cents.
The "Price Fifty Cents" is the authors price and was included as part of the title page submitted for a certificate of copyright.
Not a normal practice....So why the inclusion?
Of course for some this is like the Farmer who plants a small crop in the field hoping that it will somehow reach a maturity and thereby feed some, but out of the woods comes an unknown be it deer, elk, wild horse or jackass and eats away at the inmature plants with no thought about it. Then what went in the front comes out the back,still with no thought, leaving a little pile here and a little pile there, then goes on its way but hanging around the area in hopes the farmer will plant some more for him to turn into a little pile here and a little pile there. Which of course the farmer will do because he enjoys the land and working it and will continue to plant in hopes his crop will reach a maturity at sometime before the Jackass or whatever can eat it and leave a little pile here and a little pile there for the farmer to plow under. But all in all the little pile here and the little pile there plowed under can serve to help the plants grow so it may have a use in the scheme of things...........
David
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Post by legrand on Oct 10, 2007 18:30:38 GMT -5
David,
"So why the inclusion?".....I agree David. If and when you read "National (Beale) Treasure....At Red Knee" you will understand more about why NAO's expounded "price fifty cents" is so valuable. Why NAO doesn't see this (because he hasn't acknowledged it at all) is beyond my understanding. I knew from the beginning that this thread would educate many on the Beale Papers. Good intellectual banter is a very good teaching tool. Truth prevails in the end and is comprised of "new plants that have been heavily fertilized". NAO is either waiting for me to respond so as to pounce once again or has taken his ball and gone home. You see, he pounces on me by ignoring mostly all that I write. It's sad and ineffectual when an especially brilliant contributor goes home with his ball; it hurts the cause. Once again, this Beale Papers mystery needs representatives from all idea camps.
Shall we leave this game at mate-in-two.....no more moves....and just solve the puzzle?
Legrand
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Post by legrand on Oct 10, 2007 19:35:41 GMT -5
The anagram:
Splendor am I
Clue: Edgar Allan Poe was interested in "the other side of the coin".
Perhaps it is due time for a diversion....some play time. Who knows, it could be a valuable exercise.
Legrand
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Post by Dremland Poes on Oct 10, 2007 21:17:19 GMT -5
Did you not leave an "A" out of your anagram
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Post by legrand on Oct 10, 2007 23:03:35 GMT -5
DP
No, there's an "a" in the anagram.
Welcome aboard.
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Post by Not An Option on Oct 10, 2007 23:06:05 GMT -5
Why NAO doesn't see this (because he hasn't acknowledged it at all) is beyond my understanding. I knew from the beginning that this thread would educate many on the Beale Papers. Good intellectual banter is a very good teaching tool. Truth prevails in the end and is comprised of "new plants that have been heavily fertilized". NAO is either waiting for me to respond so as to pounce once again or has taken his ball and gone home. Well, alright, you've asked me to explain my intellectual process a few times. I didn't say anything because I honestly don't know how to answer it. This is literally what went through my head: 1. "Price fifty cents" as an anagram is part of the Beale codes? What crazy idiots, it's just the price. I have no idea why they're referring to it a "penny pamphlet", I'm yet to see any actual evidence it costed anything but 50 cents... why would they think to the contrary? Just because they made an anagram? Isn't that circular reasoning? 2. Sigh, I suppose one way to show them why picking out random anagrams of anything to find hidden patterns as meaningless is to do my own and show how ridiculous it is. Let's see what we have here... 3. (minutes later) Hmm, "Insect Crypt Fife" seems to be close enough to what I want. The first 2 words are easy enough (Poe and code references respectively), for the third, uh, something about 'playing' I guess... 4. There we go, using the same set of words to create an entirely different interpretation. They can't support both anagrams and they can't prove mine's worth less than theirs, hopefully now they'll see anagrams prove nothing. I came up with several anagrams and just picked the one that was easiest to make an explanation for. It's a fraud and faulty reasoning (making the clues you find fit the pattern you're looking for is putting the cart before the horse). If you'd like to use it as part of your own research, be my guest. I don't really have any further use for it myself. NAO.
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Post by legrand on Oct 10, 2007 23:34:42 GMT -5
NAO
Glad you're still here.
You say "several anagrams" of "Price fifty cents"....OK, say there is five legitimate anagrams of this phrase. The creator of (the intended) "insect crypt fife" would likely know all the options or other anagrams. So they would accept that the cryptanalyst would study them all. If "insect crypt fife" serves to lead one to a treasure or a vault of written (encrypted) missive, then the anagram has been successful. This is subjective and not objective which you are of the bent. If it works it works.....this is the genre of "literary steganography". The end justifies the means if it leads to what is desired.
We need everybody to solve this conundrum.
Legrand
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Post by Not An Option on Oct 11, 2007 4:33:31 GMT -5
OK, say there is five legitimate anagrams of this phrase. The creator of (the intended) "insect crypt fife" would likely know all the options or other anagrams. So they would accept that the cryptanalyst would study them all. I have to disagree on this.. first of all, five acronyms? I'd bet dollars to donuts we can churn out at least 20. This alone brings your second point into doubt or the code-maker is saying "Okay, when I say this one thing, it can also mean 20 other things, so I'll need to plan for potential codebreakers finding any of 20?". Even if we accept where the author intentionally uses a phrase that has just two meaningful different anagrams [and I consider this a pretty big if], the trouble is literally everything the author says can be anagrammed - the price of the pamphlet, his description of Beale, the name of the Hotel, any sentence, a word, a state name.. A person with enough time could go through and exhaustively anagram the entire Beale pamphlet (all word combinations, etc). Then he could pick just the sections with the anagrams he 'likes' (e.g. any anagram that refers, even passingly, to treasure, Beale, Poe, gold, America, map directions etc) and present them all by themselves as a hidden solution to the Beale ciphers. This would be dishonest, in my opinion, or at least misguided.
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Post by legrand on Oct 11, 2007 8:46:13 GMT -5
NAO
Your argument is fair and interesting....good post. I know it is unbelievable to suppose that (even with 20 possible anagrams) the cryptanalyst would be able to differentiate even 20 anagrams and select or know or intend "the right one" to pursue to fruition. This, however, just makes the puzzle more demanding and interesting....more difficult. Unlikely (I will concede) and difficult yes, but possible that the phrase "insect crypt Fife" is potent; we must not invalidate the possibility. We must not underestimate Poe's genius. If there is gold hidden in the quoins of the mansion then likely all of my points are valid (or near correct) and potent. Hopefully, one day, the mansion curator will allow us to know if gold is hidden there. Like a model of synthesis, a group of facts and historical possibilities pointing to a central point helps to show up a once unknown unanswered question being: Is there gold hidden in the mansion? You see, some of the questions have been brought to light and answered after the suspected location of treasure was identified. This is a game of subjectivity and (objective cryptography). I understand your position NAO, but my position is, well, almost mystical.
Splendor am I
Clue: Edgar Allan Poe was very interested in things in reverse. His tale "A Tale Of The Ragged Mountains" is one example. Another is that "ERE FEN DUE RED KNEE" was enciphered backwards!! This alone validates the decryption IMHO for it is so unusual. There may be more examples still hidden. The next time I address this anagram, I will post the answer.
Legrand
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