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Post by Rebel KGC on Mar 2, 2006 10:13:03 GMT -5
Yo! Rebel here: ;D Tell us MORE!!! ;D
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Post by GMan on Mar 2, 2006 16:38:03 GMT -5
Suppose, just for the sake of speculation, that sufficient fragmentary cleartext was extracted from the cipher to confirm both the validity of the code and establish the cryptogrpahers keying method. Also suppose that the information isolated, to date, can be positively identified to a specific geographical area and/or businesses that are known to exist during the 'Beale' era. Then what?
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Post by GMan on Mar 3, 2006 16:15:58 GMT -5
No, you misunderstand. I never said "X marks the spot - go get the gold here." There are other alternatives that would motivate a person to go to such lengths aside from hiding vast amounts of bullion. This aside, perhaps the whole Beale affair was a hoax -- but not the cipher itself; the original author never realizing that by accident she happened upon an exceptionally strong method. The expectation that the solution was so obvious "someone" would calculate the key; but the hoaxer never got the last laugh! Not trying to be argumentative here, just want to say that the cipher is, in the end, simply a mathematical recipe to manipulate text. In the age of 64-bit computing it was only a matter of time before enough computing muscle was available to bench a solution. No, the ciphers are not a hoax. Good luck on your quest.
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Post by Rebel KGC on Mar 3, 2006 17:38:03 GMT -5
Yo! Rebel here: ;D So... when can we assume the Beale Cypher(s) was done... @ 1820's OR 1885...? I think we gotta "think" like they did... they didn't have "puters", ya know...
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Post by GMan on Mar 3, 2006 19:15:52 GMT -5
The Beale tableaus were established in the early 19th Century; 1820's or so, and about 40 years ahead of the Civil War circa 1860's, so any relationship is implausible. The ciphers are more clever than they are sophisticated and take advantage of the phenomena of combinatorial mathematics based (accidentally, I'm presuming) on a proof known as Sorites Paradox of the heap. The methods are well within the realm of 'paper & pencil' encryption methods. The challenges of a post-September 11 environment has driven many organizations to proactively reexamine previous efforts. Note that the true value of the Beale cipher collection - irregardless of the hoax issue - is not the supposed treasure at the end of the rainbow but the encryption method itself. To the Government, any methodolgy capable of successfully resisting focused attacks for over 180 years has a proven worth. Significant progress in this arena is being made but public disclosure may not immediately occur due to the potential strength of the system. Thankfully, the Government has no interest in treasure reclamation other than, perhaps, the historical significance attributed to the cipher collection as an interesting footnote in American history.
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Post by kydave on Mar 4, 2006 22:48:26 GMT -5
If the DOI or all three code papers were combined and put in a geometric form such as a pyramid, could this possibly generate addition and subtraction by say 1 or 100 when counting the code numbers and numbering their position or cause this paradox your talking about? Or am i way off base being out there all by myself?
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Post by GMan on Mar 5, 2006 0:30:08 GMT -5
Sorites Paradox deals with the concept of the heap, or pile. For example, consider a very large pile of sand. If I remove a single grain of sand, would you still consider it a pile? In other words, has the nature of the original pile of sand changed any because I removed that one, single grain? What about a hundred grains of sand? Or a thousand? Has the nature of the pile changed? Yes, its nature has changed but remains imperceptable. Sorites demonstrated a mathematical proff that allows a person to continue removing grains of sand until none remain yet the pile still exists! In cryptoghraphy, and especially relavant to the Beale Cipher set, empirical evidence exists to vaildate the codes when viewed from the lens of Sorites Paradox. This is not a geometrical manipulation but numerical shifting i.e. a data reduction method vice an alphabetical rearrangement. At the outset, we attempted to crib a combined B1/B3 frame solution by applying a brute force attack. Our test harness modeled a rearrangement algorithm -- expecting some positive results to qeue for further study. After a thousand hours of dedicated computer time we accepted failure. Only by applying a variant of the Sorities phenomena were cleartext eventually produced. Not much, but a significant amount to statistically demonstrate that it could not have occurred by chance alone. A more formal study needs to be conducted, to include historical research, in order to undeniably claim a solution. Incidentally, the only positive results observed, to date, are relevant to B3. For the sake of objectivity the B1 code was put aside.
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Post by Elwood Chaney on Mar 5, 2006 14:00:53 GMT -5
"Well, Well"... you guy's are still the same. A bunch of "old dog's... lookin' for the bone... and just runnin' around in circles... chasin your own tails! I know your're not going to like it... "but, in my opinion... your ALL... a pathetic bunch of researchers." OK... say or think, what you want of me and my opinions... I COULD CARE LESS! My only concern... is WINNING this 'game of wits!' And I WILL WIN! Be assured of THAT! ..........................................................................................
Now... to your previous entries:
Albert... you are 'no danger' to me. You're still LOST. And always will be. As long as you persist 'in believing'... that the Beale story is un-adulterated truth. True... you posted a lot of 'alleged facts'... all of which are un-verifiable. You want to post... SHOW PROOF! Snap out of it, Albert.... your're on a 'Believing Voyage' that is going nowhere. .........................................................................................
Rebel... the same for you. In fact--- you might actually be Albert... just using another one of these "funny" names, so as not to be recognized. IF... you have 'accomplished' something... why not be recognized for it... by using "a real name."
Rebel... in your most recent post... you mentioned the Irish in the Roanoke Valley. So, with that in mind... what could be more Irish... than Leprechauns... and their "hidden POTS of GOLD." So, Rebel... let me ask you, or any of the others... did you find the 'connection' between that idea and the Beale mystery? There is 'no connection' you say! Quite the contrary!
In the Beale story(Jan 4th letter) it states: "... to carry out..." Many years ago, I showed how the 'furthered decipherment' of the C2 message.... led to the finding of Henry F. CARY/carry and his translation of The Divine Comedy. Leading to the finding of the only word in Italics... Treasure. But... now you have to assimilate the name of one of those I equate with the creation of the Beale mystery. That of Lewis CARROLL. CARY + CARROLL... produces Charles E. CARRYL... the American version of Lewis Carroll. In 1884, he wrote a childrens story(based on Alice In Wonderland) called "Davy and the Goblin." Remembering that David Mason once told us that the Beale story was copy-righted in April (don't remember the year)... look at page 29... where you will find the words: APRIL FOOL ! There are numerous characters in that story... including a "Hole-Keeper." Remember, that Thomas Jefferson Beale anagrams out to "free mason safe HOLE." ..........................................................................................
And finally... GMan: In your March 3rd posting, you said that: "The Beale tableaus were established in the early 19th century; 1820's or so, and about 40 years ahead of the Civil War circa 1860's, so any relationship is implausible." WRONG! IF what you speculate, in your mind is true... how do you explain the following: The description of Beale... is the exact characterization of "Confederate General-- Turner ASHBY." And by the way... when the man I hold most responsible for the creation of the Beale mystery, George Alfred Townsend, wrote his 1886 book... he created a Negro character, named "ASHBY." And also... in the C2 "message," there is an amount mentioned: "and twelve hundred and eighty eight of silver;" Now, tell me that that isn't the same as: Serial Volume 1288-- United States Government, Executive Documents of the House of Representatives, Second Session of the Thirty-ninth Congress,1866-67, Government Printing Office 1867 The Official Government Investigation into the Assassination of President Abraham Lincoln
And there are so many other references to the Civil War, that I cannot list them all. Which makes your statements GMan... implausible and irrational. You now have my permission to change your 'nom-de-plume'.... to "FMan !"
Now that's a 'posting !' Think about 'what you say' and 'who' your're up against... cause I'm not about to help you guys pull your feet out of your mouths later on trying to explain why you all have made such erroneous statements.
Elwood Chaney
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Post by Rebel KGC on Mar 5, 2006 17:18:01 GMT -5
Yo! Rebel here: ;D WILCARD! (Mr. Cheney...) I can't assure ANYONE that Albert is NOT me on the "puter"... u just LOVE to attack pp don't u? "good old "boy" from West Virginia... WHAT is YOUR "CLUE", eh? U just MIGHT be an "pissed off" "anal retention" who just doesn't exist except..."in his own mind"...
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Post by kydave on Mar 5, 2006 21:30:40 GMT -5
Thanks G-man, i've seen the number shift and never could figure out how it was done, number line, slide rule and everything else i could think of with no results in finding a systematic way that could be used for decipherment. So then i read somewhere that a scrambled cipher like this would take a geometric shape when its decoded so gave it a shot anyway. But i do believe that the person that put these numbers down knew exactly what they were doing! Clever or genius? Don't know! Seems that the numbers or their numerical positions were placed 100 200 300 numbers apart plus or minus 1 on all three papers. Then theres the pairs 115 73 116 74 etc. numerical pairs on all three papers. If someone was smart enough to create a hoax and went to this much trouble they could have just as easily made it spell something! It could be that the single number 1 or its position on each page could be the answer. A lot of things seem to point to a relationship between the first and last number on each page or their position, the number 1 and it's position and the number 100 as some kind of measuring tool. I would love to see how simple the answer probably really is.
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Post by KYDAVE on Mar 6, 2006 12:18:43 GMT -5
Just a follow up to say that i believe theres a few mistakes on paper number 1 which could cause a problem if two or all three of the papers need to be combined to spell out all the names and addresses or one paper "keys" the other. There seems to be a disagreement on the amount of numbers on paper number one. Some think the four digit numbers are only two with the comma missing and some believe what you see is correct. Just some thoughts that might help somebody. Attack from all directions! There are no bad approahes or idea's on this forum! Any method or idea could unlock it!
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Post by Kydave on Mar 8, 2006 12:04:53 GMT -5
Since everybodys got their pencil and paper out i'll just post that theres the possibility that the DOI was numbered forward and backward to get this slide rule effect.
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Post by Elwood Chaney on Mar 8, 2006 15:10:04 GMT -5
So... Kydave thinks he has had a 'brain-storm' and wants to number the Declaration forward and back-ward. Sorry, Dude... but 'ya know... if RockHound is able to access the 'postings' from many years ago for you, he can show you that... I already posted that same sort of thing: In the Cipher #2 MESSAGE... are: nov + dec In the Declaration:176 words FORWARD= li KEL y In the Declaration:176 words in REVERSE= de NOU nces **** places: #176 + #1146/3 letters in- 3 letters across
KEL > changed in Latin = dec NOU> changed in Old style English = nov
Jan 4th Beale letter: "... they discovered on their left, an IMMENSE HERD of BUFFALOES heading for a valley,..."
ref: Sheridans Troopers on the Borders- A Winter Campaign on the Plains: Chapter VI -- Immense Herd of Buffaloes/written by Randolph KEIM(rhymes with TIME) in 1870. KEIM was an associate of Townsend's during the Civil War. Those reporters regarded themselves as "The Bohemian Brigade."
Incidently... where Townsend built his estate, in 1885, is the same place designated as the site where Robert E. Lee's courier "LOST" Special Orders #191
Have a Good Day... gentlemen!
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Post by kydave on Mar 8, 2006 19:48:25 GMT -5
I stand corrected! I should have went thru all of Rockhounds Archives before posting. But my main attempt was to find the math system that was used to spread the code numbers. I don't even attempt to spell words unless i think i've found a pattern in the number sequence, anyone can force letters to spell something using the frequency count. Incidently i believe thats why that method doesn't pan out because the numbers are not in their right order. Like i've said before, i don't get the pencil out much. Just trying to maybe give someone else an idea. I hate to see so many people wasting time on things that have been tried already. I did the Spanish French thing years ago! I just want this thing solved in my lifetime.
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Post by Elwood Chaney on Mar 8, 2006 22:54:23 GMT -5
Kydave...
Forget your "math systems--number sequences--code numbers!" They are an "illusion!" When this thing was first conceived, probably the first thing agreed upon... was that--- anyone who initially encountered it... would be drawn to trying to solve it, with "math systems--- number sequences---code numbers." And where has all of that led? Absolutey no-where.
The "alleged codes" (all 3 of them)--- are the finest example of "a shell game" ever exhibited. The elusive "pea" cannot be found... because it doesn't exist. The 'message' in C2 wasn't "found" by anyone. It was CREATED for enhancement and to provide other little bits of information to follow. That's all.
I'll bet that you can't even decide on a 'location' yet. Most likely you are going to follow the premise put forth by the story... that something is hidden somewhere in the Goose Creek area. Lots of mountainous area there. Doesn't take 'a rocket scientist' to realize that trying to transport the 'alleged' pots... would take a lot more man-power than is evidenced from the story. Sure... that part of the story sounds good, and its intriquing. But that is only because... 'writer/author' Samuel Langhorne Clemens(aka; Mark Twain)(another member of this charade) came from that area. And still has kin in that area of Virginia.
And doesn't it sound 'logical'... that 'IF' this 'alleged' wagon-train did pass through St. Louis... that instead of hauling those heavy pots, several hundred more miles back to Virginia... that they turn it into"CASH"--- put it in the bank--- and head back to assist the the men left behind. Excuse me for saying so... but that would be assinine, not to.
Look at the word "jewels"... as "j/ewels" The "ewels"--- when anagrammed is "lewes"... as in Lewes, Delaware. Where Townsend was from.
So... if the location is not in Virginia... where could it be?
The 'dates' of the Beale letters, give you such an indication. Jan 4th + Jan 5th + May 9
The "4 + 5" = Dams 4 + 5/Potomac River/Washington County, Maryland. May 9 = May 9, 1800... John Brown's birthday. Last residence--- Washington County, Maryland. Just above Harpers Ferry, WV. And "pots"... if you want to see 'pots'... come to Williamsport, Maryland when the Potomac River is low. You will see the old Indian 'fish-POTS' (V) in the river. And as I've told all of the others, not that any of them have paid any attention... that if I wanted to go to Mexico, from my home here in Ber KEL ey County, WV... I can "DRIVE" there... in about 1 1/2 hrs. Of course I'm referring to "MEXICO Farms" in Western, Maryland. Or just simply referred to as "MEXICO" by the locals.
So you see... you will get to see the end of this thing... very soon. Finding of the "xxxxx House"... which is adjacent to the "XXXXXX Grove Cemetery"... may very well be the end of this thing. Once and for all.
It took me a long time to assimilate what is found in the story... to connecting those thoughts with the local area.
Truthfully... what helped was having seen "E.T."... where Elliott keeps "dropping little pieces of candy" to entice the creature to "leave his hiding place" in the woods and follow him home. This is the same thing! Little pieces of information... dropped in the Beale letters... and all you have to do is... follow.
Will have to end now. My eye-sight is failing me and its TIME to take my Heart medications. I get very tired easily now.
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